CycleBetter.Com!

The G-Rant : Grant's Rants on Adventure Racing

“Without adventure, civilization is in full decay.” - Alfred North Whitehead

PQ-Untamed Date

I got a bit of bad news last night, all revolving around PrimalQuest.  Despite a 60 minute  in-person sit-down meeting with Don Mann (the CEO of PQ) where he assured me that I could move forward with a June 21st, 2008 race up in New England -- the 60-hour Untamed New England adventure race -- and that PQ would be held in April or May next year . . . PrimalQuest announced yesterday their race will start on June 21st, 2008.  Don actually commented, in our April meeting, that bigger races need to cooperate on dates and it's important that we work together.  Now, I met with Don back in April and we discussed a couple of different things, but the whole date thing is really disappointing.  I get the impression PQ is struggling for direction and, if they don't find a sponsor to buy down the $12,500 entrance fee per team, they may not even have a race.  Maybe this race date issue is nothing to get worked up about?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not under the impression that after our meeting, Don Mann circled the June 21st date with blood and summoned his pack of evil monkeys to start working on a June 21st race start for PQ.  Don wasn't gunning for me or the Untamed New England race.  He probably just forgot and/or doesn't care.  Untamed and I just don't warrant the concern and respect, in their eyes.  It's not the first time Don has been part of an adventure race date conflict, after all, and I don't think this is nearly the magnitude of what went down between eco-challenge and Don Mann's Beast in 2000.  It's just frustrating, particularly when we've been trying to work with PQ in so many other ways (technology, GPS tracking, etc).  So, it is frustrating to be disrepected so clearly -- even if it is unintentional. 

Meanwhile, what do to about the race date for Untamed New England?  We were poised to launch registration in a few weeks with the following specifics:
  • -Fee at $375/racer (around $1200 per team)
  • -Fee includes 2 nights lodging (pre and post race)
  • -No support crews allowed (we stage all gear), and we source all watercraft, PFDs, and paddles
  • -A beautiful 200 mile, 60-hour course with real navigation, multiple rope sites (along the lines of tyrolean, rappel, mechanical ascending, etc), and truly untamed terrain
  • -Race start around mid-day Thursday June 19th, race finish late Sat June 21st or ealy Sun June 22nd.
There's three main directions to move in, the first being do nothing and forge ahead with a race weekend of June 21st, 2008.  There's no guarantee PQ will even hold a race, let alone keep the date they've advertised.  Plus, our event could get some additional publicity as the anti-PQ or "anti-quest" . . . the real grassroots race effort for June 2008.

The second option would be to move it up a month into late May.  This might make the event appealing as a pre-PQ tune up for some teams, and let us have exclusive attention for the race.  This would also let me play nice with all the PQ folks and, honestly, the PQ staff I know are all  very good people . . . except, perhaps, for Will Ramos who is a bit of delinquent (that's a joke, in case you missed it) . . . but it would make those interactions much more friendly.  May has more unpredictable weather, however, and if I found 30-degree temps near the summits of some of the peaks on the Untamed course in June . . . May could feature snow and even more hypothermic conditions.  Plus, all our permits are in place for a June 21st race weekend and I'm not sure I can change them all, particularly for some of the alpine areas. 

The third option would be to move the race later into 2008, but the Untamed New England region gets swamped later in the year and prices for hotels, outfitters, etc all climb dramatically.  I'd like to keep my per person race fee as close to $300 as possible and that may not be feasible with an Aug or Sept race date.

So, what do I do?  You'll have to stay tuned, or add your two cents in the comments and let me know what you think.  What I'm doing right now is boxing up some bikes to be shipped to our new address in Zurich and focussing on packing up.  Tomorrow we fly to Switzerland so you'll probably be in suspense for a week or two regarding this issue . . .



Published Jun 27 2007, 10:20 AM by gkillian

Comments

Michelle Faucher said:

Hi Grant,

Thought I would give my two cents on the PQ/ Untamed situation and offer up what I plan on doing and what I think you should do (but you don't have to listen to that:) First off I plan on doing PQ regardless of when it is but I was hoping to do your race as well. If the two dates fall on the same day I will have to pick PQ for alot of reasons none of which have anyting to do with your races. In fact I think that everyone at PQ could probably learn a few things from you about putting on first class/well run races. But I digress:)
If PQ does keep its date I think that you should think about moving it up 3 to 4 weeks prior to the race so that way racers like myself could do Untamed as a warmup for PQ. Afterall how many other 50+ hour races will there be unless 2 or 3 pop up in the winter and spring as a response to PQ. Then you could market the race to that group that does plan on doing PQ while still attracting other teams that are not. Anyway that is what I think. Hopefully you will be able to work something out but first and for most you should do what is best for you and your race organization first.

Cheers,
Michelle
# June 27, 2007 11:53 AM

Universe said:

Karma's a bitch ain't it? I laughed my ass off when I saw this :-)
# June 27, 2007 12:01 PM

Goble said:

The date conflict is quite unfortunate but my hunch is that with the package and price point you're offering, you'll have little to no problem with demand for your race.

My advice is to do nothing.

I don't think there are more than a couple teams that will crossover and do both, at least with the proposed dates you threw out. PQ has a tendancy to essentially serve as a season killer ($, vacation days off work) for many amatuer/unsponsored teams so rescheduling later in the year may not do anything to help your cause. PQ 06 literally crushed the AR souls of many of my local friends/competitors, many who have still not recovered or returned.  

If you're really think it's important to draw the crossover crowd, I'd suggest moving to an early May date so they can use it as their PQ prep race. Late May is still too tight for most teams to manage both... any team doing so would be ill-advised. Best case scenario it would serve teams as long training. Worst case scenario and you have a teammate injured or dynamics and have to scramble to find a PQ replacement in 3 weeks.

If early May isn't a safe option, then keep it as is. Dollar for dollar, I think you're offering well-exceeds PQ and will stand on it's own.

Keep us posted... we'll be watching
# June 27, 2007 12:18 PM

Andy said:

From my experience, if you try to accomodate other peoples' indecisiveness when planning events, then your event will ultimately suffer.  You have just done the right thing by being proactive.  It's true that you might lose some top-of-the-line racers if PQ does indeed happen on the same date as the UntamedNE.  However, if you end up moving the date of the UntamedNE to later in the summer season then, like you said, you may have to jack up the race fee.  This could hurt the showing of avg. Joe teams from places like Hampton Roads who want to continue to support Untamed but are fronting the travel costs.    
# June 27, 2007 12:51 PM

Jonathan said:

UntamedNE three weeks earlier is better (if possible). You'll get that Appalachian Extreme feeling on the weather if you're far enough north. I assume we're talking VT, NH, ME for UntamedNE and not CT, RI. :)

But I think that 1/10th the price for 1/4th the race clock with no need for support crews is a great deal. We can take the savings and go do Arctic Challenge or Ecomotion or Bull of Africa or RTNE to fill in the time. And maybe still have $$$ leftover.  
# June 27, 2007 3:09 PM

Scott said:

Grant,

I would say go forward with your plans. You have mentioned in the past that there is a lack of races in the the niche between one day races and races like PQ or MIX. I believe there is probably a class of racers that may never do PQ that have done one day races but would like to try a longer distance. Your race would do that. While on a little different scale, The UntamedVA is a good example in that you completely sold out your race and it was only a week after the Worlds Championship.

In the end I guess you have to consider what market you are going to market too and what you want your race to accomplish. I think you will fill the race either way, and other than a hand full of teams the entry list would probably be similar. I only recall three or four teams that have done PQ in any of your past races.

Scott
# June 27, 2007 3:22 PM

Bill Vickers said:

Well Grant, I guess you know what I think.
   For those of us around here who know HRA/Untamed Adventure, build it and we will come.  I am sorry on a personal level I missed out on Untamed VA.    Eventually, everyone will know you can put on a race worthy of the most discriminating racers.  Who else is doing sat tracking, online maps, tracker leaderboard, mytopo maps etc on a weekend event for a nonprofit fee?    Maybe not everyone in the US will know Untamed's reputation in 2007/2008, but the word will get out eventually.
   I have got to agree with Goble (do I always Bryan?), the majority of us won't be able to swing doing both, and it would probably be ludicrous to think about it. Although I just might...   But, early May up there is touch and go (tamela lives up there), but it wouldn't hold us back in attending in 2008 if it was early May.   I would love to do both races, and am already torn about PQ's cost, them not answering emails, and this date with an asterick below out "date subject to change" thing.  I personally don't work like that.   But, a well reasoned person would choose your race over PQ in a heartbeat.  
   Dollar for dollar, you race(s) are worth more than anything I have done. Note, I also live close by and love paddling on knarly ocean swells, trekking amongst tidal marshes, and cussing at you for placing a difficult cp.   With your PR mojo and staff of great people, I would expect Untamed NE to sell out early.  I predict a bunch of shorter course folks looking to go beyond 2 days and a host of experienced competitive teams will fill the slots early.
   On the other hand, I am leery of what happened with MIX and ARWC occurring simultaneously.   I just don't think PQ is gonna have the same allure as before and what ARWC had with Scotland. Also, your event is more doable for some in the sport.  For the sake of AR, I hope PQ continues to be a premier event.  I also have nothing against PQ, since those guys will undoubtedly put on a good event and draw an international crowd, but I think the more reasonable of us know a better deal.
    Even though Untamed New England is a longer racer, history has shown that nearly everyone of your races has had a full roster, allowed newer folks to enjoy an epic race while at the same time providing enough challenge for the more experienced to sign up in a heart beat.   I didn't attend your first season of races though. Correct me if I am wrong.  
  My own ambition is that a pack of competitive teams will make the trip and it will become a coveted event.  Maybe that way I can get over PQ if they coincide.
  So, after all my hogwash, do what you want, "they will come."  They always have.
Bill V
# June 27, 2007 3:57 PM

Mark Lewis said:

I agree with Bill Vickers.  For racers like us Lemmings, PQ is an insurmountable resource problem - don't have the time, don't have the money, don't have the equipment (probably) and don't have the ability to get all the certs done prior to the event.  But a 60 hour Untamed event is conceivable for us.  And, frankly, I'd just as soon not race with teams like Nike any more than I'd like to play a pick up game against the Redskins.  It's only a fight if the little guy thinks he has a chance, no matter how slim.  Otherwise, it's just a beating, and who wants to volunteer to take a beating? (For the personal challenge and sense of accomplishment?  Please, we're old but we're not dead yet.)

Earlier in May is a non-starter for us, fwiw.  

Best and good luck.  Mark Lewis.  
# June 27, 2007 5:25 PM

teamrunswithscissors said:

Dude,

PQ is DQ.  Mann is playing hardball, for sure.  

Poor, unsponsored teams everywhere will join your cause.   You'll be *the* alternative for the teams that can't afford or qualify for PQ.

"The 60 Hour Untamed New England AR:  All Guts, No Glamor."

Team Runs with Scissors
# June 28, 2007 8:02 AM

Jodi said:

Hey there,
If I were you i would just stick with the date, quite frankly I seriously doubt you would lose many teams (maybe only 2 or 3 in reality) to the PQ race.  Your draw will be mostly from the eastren seaboard and north east.  I have done every PQ and i distinctly remember being one of the few folks from the northeast at every event.  The events are quite different as well, your doing a 60hr race with alot lower cost vs a 10day race with big buck costs.  i wouldnt worry you will draw in racers and have no problem doing so.  I am also sure there alot of folks who dream of doing PQ and talk the talk that they will go, but when it comes down the bucks, and logistics and the reality of it most of them wont be doing the event.  PQ has always been a great event, BUT out of all the world events I have ever done it has also been the event with the biggest logistical headaches and costs ever, and gear lists that are extensive and costly.  I am not knocking Don at all, as he is awesome and happy to see him in charge for sure, he is A#1 material.  I also think that the dates were not chosen with any insult to you.  But if you look back, the dates chosen for PQ 2008 are almost the exact dates as the Moab race, so in essense PQ had the dates first man.

Best bet is to keep your race exactly as planned and you wont be losing any competitors is my bet.
Good luck with the race.  that is just my two-cents
# June 28, 2007 8:27 AM
Sign in | Join | Help

in Search

Google

About CycleBetter.Com

Subscribe

Google Reader or Homepage
del.icio.us cyclebetter.com Latest Items
Add to My Yahoo!
Subscribe with Bloglines
Subscribe in NewsGator Online
Subscribe with myFeedster
Add to My AOL
Furl cyclebetter.com Latest Items
Subscribe in Rojo

Syndicated Blogs

eBent Recumbent Cycling
Bakfiets en meer


 

Friends of CycleBetter.Com

 


Site Copyright © 2008 CycleBetter.Com
Content Copyright Individual Bloggers

Powered by Community Server (Commercial Edition), by Telligent Systems